Curse

Tiyuri · Jan 30, 2007, 03:08 AM // 03:08

I've been considering writing an article on this subject for some time, it's an interesting one for me so I've decided to open it up for discussion.

We all have our own personal opinion in terms of what makes a "good" Guild wars player, some of us have higher standards than others, some of us are in it for fun and couldn't really care less if we're good or bad players. But something I think we're all aware of is the way the average players skill level seems to rise and fall over time, sometimes with the implementation of new features (particularly observer mode), or with the implementation of new skills, classes and game dynamics.

Something that seems to have really stuck out for me in the last few months or so is an alarming drop in skill level in the upper tiers of PVP play. I'd put this down mainly to the lack of incentive to be competative in GvG, and a less competative style of play in the 6v6 change to Heroes' Ascent. But it also occurred to me that perhaps the skill level of the mid level players is dropping too.

I'm seeing a distinct lack of "new blood" lately, it's been a while since I've seen a new team or guild that's actually gone out and impressed me. The idea of average skill level being on a constant downwards spiral is a worrying one. Over time it could lead to the dumbing down of the game and a lack of competition for veteran guilds.

So why do I think we're on this path? There's a whole number of reasons.

From public resources being full of misinformation and "bad" builds to the constant build up of requirements just to get into competative play. But I think the biggest problem for me is the inclusion of new skills in chapters 2 and especially 3 that require almost zero skill to play whilst still achieving very passable results.

Examples of these would be searing flames, sand storms, paragon party wide buffs, ritualist spirit spam, dervish. None of which take very much skill to play, but give mediocre teams some very dangerous fire power. The dervish in particular stands out to me as being a "dumbed down" warrior, lacking the finesse and skill required to play a good warrior in a top end game and yet managing to cause some very serious damage.

We've got RaO Thumpers tearing things up, we've got blinding surge eles constantly applying blind, no need to cover with weakness, just spam spam spam! Sure these are small changes, especially to those of us who were used to the slightly (but not very) more complicated use of enervating charge to cover blind on a target. But I think it's these little things that are making the difference.

Enchant removal? forget about it! just beat through the enchants with avatar of Grenth, no real need to shatter any more.

Avoiding prot to cause maximum pressure on a melee profession? Don't worry about that! Grenth deals with that too.

Trying to pull off a nice adren lead balanced spike? Well forget learning about kiting and placement, just shadow prison to the target and let rip. You've got spiritual pain backing you up now anyway, your casters don't even need a line of sight!

I think that with the addition of a truck load of new skills with each additional chapter, the designers are running out of new things for those skills to do, so rather than inventing a new kind of skill, they're either duplicating another skill and changing the numbers, or looking at what's strong in the meta and simplifying it into an elite that anyone can play with.

It's like looking at the game and saying.. "well people are needing to constantly spam blind with flashbots, how can we help them out with that?" and designing an elite skill around that premise. The result is the skill required to play the original build goes out of the window and just about anyone can play it to an effective level.

Whilst all these things mean that poorer players are now more able to compete with more skilled players, is that really a good thing? Shouldn't new players be able to stretch ahead of the opposition BECAUSE they're more skilled? Isn't attempting to reach the level of your betters the motivation behind making people learn?

I want to hear your thoughts on the subject.

Some questions to consider:

Where do you think the average skill level in Guild Wars is right now?

Do you think this is a good or bad thing for the game?

Why do you think it's at the level it's at?

How do you think you rate personally in relation to the average player?

How would you remedy the problem (if you think there is one)?

Have we begun to reach the upper level for the amount of skills the game is capable of working with?

Are new professions too easy to play?

I've mainly spoken about PVP here because it's what I know, feel free to discuss the PVE side of this. I'm interested in where the game is going as a whole and I'd like to hear how its evolving in terms of PVE also.

Thanks.

You just got tomahawked · Jan 30, 2007, 03:21 AM // 03:21

Well, it depends where you start. if you start from the very very very very (x100) then yes the amount of skill to achieve higher ranks is on a downward spiral. If you start from when HA instead of tombs was introdouced then it's on an upward spiral. I say this because of one simple build...IWAY (scary music plays) (people drop dead). At least you have people that know how to knockdown, people that know when to use theirs skills. If I remeber correctly, in IWAY as soon as any of your skills recharged you's just use them again. Absoloutely NO SKILL whatsoever. Also Mesmers are IMO one of the hardest professions to play and they are being used more and more. They are still not being used to the skill level that mesmers lend themselves to but they are being used. IMO it just depends where you start from and who you ask.

Tiyuri · Jan 30, 2007, 03:23 AM // 03:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by You just got tomahawked

Well, it depends where you start. if you start from the very very very very (x100) then yes the amount of skill to achieve higher ranks is on a downward spiral. If you start from when HA instead of tombs was introdouced then it's on an upward spiral. I say this because of one simple build...IWAY (scary music plays) (people drop dead). At least you have people that know how to knockdown, people that know when to use theirs skills. In IWAY as soon as any of your skills recharged you's just use them again. Absoloutely NO SKILL whatsoever. Also Mesmers are IMO one of the hardest professions to play and they are being used more and more. They are still not being used to the skill level that mesmers lend themselves to but they are being used. IMO it just depends where you start from and who you ask.

One thing I have to disagree with here, is IWAY actually required some level of skill. Whilst there were a lot of completely terrible IWAYs out there, some good players used the build very well, even IWAY required positioning, keeping your necros in the backline, extending the warriors and having them full back when they take damage, line backing, and so on.

Searing flames is just target and go.

As for mesmers, you bring up a good point. They used to be about shutting things down, there used to be a certain level of finesse when playing now, now it's 3 2 1 spiritual pain!!

Esprit · Jan 30, 2007, 03:27 AM // 03:27

You sure flamed a wide range of professions and builds. Some are gimmick, some are not. Just because one skill set is easier to use than the other makes the skill level of the player less? Not really. Poor players and good players can use Searing Flames or Avatar of Grenth, the difference is how they apply it and if they play it correctly.

What's wrong with giving players, who are not as good as higher ranked guilds, a hand? I don't really see a problem, considering the higher ranked guilds also have access to the same skills.

Everyone deserves an equal chance at PvP (because that is what you are talking about... "The Average PvP Skill Level in Guild wars." is what it should be named).

Play how you like, with whatever skill combo you like, if it gets you to the top, fine. If you are getting destroyed by these "gimmick" builds and professions, maybe you need to reevaluate your own skill level.

edit: You just argued IWAY required skill... then that makes it seem like you are saying Avatar of Grenth or Searing Flame (from your examples) builds require some level of skill too.

You just got tomahawked · Jan 30, 2007, 03:37 AM // 03:37

Well all builds require SOME skill. In SF you have to know to MS--->Sf---> Glowing Gaze. I have played some actually good SF's because they knew to not have their monks rush in, not to overextend, pressure anyone who is overextending so they will lay off the monks. Any gimmick build can have some amount of greatness in the right hands. Look at [ftl] they run jagged/hex pressure and they have capped halls more times than i can remember. Now the build is considered noob by some people.

There will always be some FotM/Gimmick/hardly any skill build. Once that build is strongly cemented in the metagame people adapt to counter it and that build (the build that counters the FotM) is used then people counter that build so it's a chain. e.g. Jagged/Hex pressure was used to dislodge some of the holding builds.

Though if a team can overcome that counter and play through it then that and only that shows true skill. Basically, it's not the build it's the people who play the build. It's not the profession it's the people who play it. Sure anyone can play the build/profession but only a very good player can play it to it's potential. Anet can give us any freaking build they want but it will only be used to it's fullest in an experienced player.

Tiyuri · Jan 30, 2007, 03:40 AM // 03:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Esprit

You sure flamed a wide range of professions and builds.

It's not flaming. How can I flame a fictional profession in a computer game.

Quote:

What's wrong with giving players, who are not as good as higher ranked guilds, a hand? I don't really see a problem, considering the higher ranked guilds also have access to the same skills.

The problem is, I'm suggesting, that older players had to use a more complicated combination of skills/position/strategy and so on to achieve the same results that new players can achieve with one skill specially built for said purpose. Thus the new players aren't learning skill synergy, strategy or any of that good stuff.

Quote:

If you are getting destroyed by these "gimmick" builds and professions, maybe you need to reevaluate your own skill level.

This isn't a post about anything being overpowered, I don't know where you got that from, it's about the skill level required to play certain skills. And the skill level in the game as a whole.

Quote:

edit: You just argued IWAY required skill... then that makes it seem like you are saying Avatar of Grenth or Searing Flame (from your examples) builds require some level of skill too.

Iway required positioning, kiting, linebacking, a good understanding of how to apply pressure and keep yourself alive to play effectively. Searing flames is just a "spam it and go" build, it requires pretty much nothing unique in itself, Grenth pretty much destroys the entire concept of working "around" enchantments, shattering them, disabling them. You just beat through them, it makes for a simpler game. And a simpler game makes for less skilled players.

Quote:

Originally Posted by You just got tomahawked

*snip*

What I'm discussing here isn't gimmick builds, it's the skill level of players. I'm just making the link that particular SKILLS are being introduced to replace synergies between two previous skills, or to replace older perfectly valid builds, which in turn dumbs down the level of knowledge and skill required to play the profession in question before the new elites were introduced.

All this is is my opinion on why the skill level is dropping, I'd like to hear what you think is happening to the skill level in game right now, both in PVP and PVE and why you think it's going the way it is.

bart · Jan 30, 2007, 03:40 AM // 03:40

Where do you think the average skill level in Guild Wars is right now?
I am one of those play for fun don't really care about having the right build player. I think only PvPers need to bother about skill and having the right build because in PvE it doesn't really matter. With Heroes, i heard, its pretty freaking easy.

Do you think this is a good or bad thing for the game?
I think it has its good and bad. Good for casual gamer as he can play anytime he want and won't find himself with -60% all the time. Bad for hardcore PvEers and PvPers as it has become too easy for them.

Why do you think it's at the level it's at?
i think there are high number of players like myself who don't really care and are low skilled and a low number who know the game inside out kick ur ass in PvP within 10 secs players.

How do you think you rate personally in relation to the average player?
Low skilled

How would you remedy the problem (if you think there is one)?
I think the reason why the skill level has gone down is because many old hardcore players have left the game. Newbies who want to get into PvP face a brick wall as there is a minimum requirement to get into PvP groups. Faction and NF allows u to purchase skills thus u will only buy the skills u think u will use all the time rather than waste money buying all the skills to come out with specific builds. Last but not least, heroes kick ass.

So my solution is to allow only one hero to follow u around in missions thus increasing difficulty and the need to group with other human players. have a better reward system for PvP which will give newbies something to aim for, eg points can be exchanged for rare items like fellblade.

Have we begun to reach the upper level for the amount of skills the game is capable of working with?
No idea what you mean...

Are new professions too easy to play?
No issues there.

Isn't attempting to reach the level of your betters the motivation behind making people learn?
ppl are always looking for the easy way out or the get rich quick secret. Anet has provided this with certain skills that own. why would they want to get better if they already think they are better?

Tiyuri · Jan 30, 2007, 03:49 AM // 03:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by bart

why would they want to get better if they already think they are better?

I really liked this point, are you suggesting that the average "attempting-to-be-competative" player thinks they're better than they actually are DUE to these easy to use skills, and so they're not progressing?

Could you elaborate on this at all?

You just got tomahawked · Jan 30, 2007, 03:49 AM // 03:49

Well in a total simplest answer to the wuestion, No I do not see the skill level declining. If it is it might be a blessing in disguise to get some fresh blood in GW. Sure the builds are easy (IMO they have alway been easy) but people know how to play those easy builds the same as maybe 4 months ago.

bigvisg · Jan 30, 2007, 03:55 AM // 03:55

Also consider that as the number of players increases the average will continue to fall. Sure some new players will become very successful, but historically averages nearly always fall.

Str0b0 · Jan 30, 2007, 04:05 AM // 04:05

I disagree about the dervish being a dumbed down warrior. If anything a dervish has a lot more considerations than a warrior. A warrior can rely on high natural armor and a lot of useful stances. The Dervish on the other hand has only mediocre armor and must utilize enchants to keep up their effectiveness. How much enchant removal is available versus stance removal? To be a really effective dervish you have to have good timing, and plan ahead on your enchants, layering them so that your core enchants don't get stripped away leaving you with your proverbial junk hanging in the breeze. this goes far beyond your average amount of upkeep required for say a stance tank or KD build. Granted in PvP the dervish seems to be relegated to using gimmick skills, Grenth anyone? A good dervish though could provide a lot in the way of pressure and in a way no warrior could ever hope for. They can lay out almost every condition in the game. They can lay down high damage on squishies. Most importantly, if played correctly they require very little monk upkeep. Granted you don't see many people playing dervishes well. Mostly you see the gimmick builds, that while effective, are sort of lazy.

Now I'm not saying dervish characters take the same degree of skill that say a mesmer takes to play well but certainly more than a warrior. The way a warrior is made makes them very noob friendly. High armor, pretty easy skill trees to use effectively. They are very forgiving characters to play in that you can screw up pretty bad with a warrior before taking a dive. Other characters are not so lucky and do not have that level of survivability. I think it was summed up best in the dervish forum in "The Way of the Scythe and Hood" thread.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lordhelmos

A dervish is not a warrior, it is a very high maintainence advanced melee class that functions very differently than a warrior. With a warrior you can tank damage with very little maintanence or skill management. This is because warriors have very high natural armor and with a shield have about 100+ vs physical damage. Dervish only have 70 armor and if you charge into a mob without preparing yourself first, you will take alot of damage and die. Granted with this said, a dervish with ample preparation and enchantment management can take loads of damage and function as a mob destroying monster.

That sums it up very well I think. I'm not going to get involved with any debate about PvP since I don't do that anymore, but I don't think the new professions are too easy to play. they are simply new and as such you see people paying a lot of attention to them right now and coming up with spanking new builds that get picked up, tossed about, refined and then poof now you have this FotM that everyone has used and refined to the point of ridiculousness. That doesn't mean the profession as a whole is easy to play just that build.

Malice Black · Jan 30, 2007, 04:07 AM // 04:07

Where do you think the average skill level in Guild Wars is right now?
Low to medium.

Do you think this is a good or bad thing for the game?
It's expected, f2p will draw in those want to play an online game but don't want to pay and don't have 3+ hours a day to play.

Why do you think it's at the level it's at?
Because it's free to play. There is no real level of commitment needed hence why there is considerable lack of decent PvE players.

How do you think you rate personally in relation to the average player?
I'm average.

How would you remedy the problem (if you think there is one)?
Gwen's Firestorm.

Have we begun to reach the upper level for the amount of skills the game is capable of working with?
No. New skills keeps the game fresh. New classes just need to be thought out better.

Are new professions too easy to play? To me playing one of the newer classes is more a challenge. I've tried playing Dervish and Paragon but just could never get into it like my good old necro and warrior.

My honest answers. Riverside geeks feel free to get out your dictionary/Thesaurus etc to rip it apart and start your 1000 word essay on why my opinion isn't valid.

You just got tomahawked · Jan 30, 2007, 04:09 AM // 04:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Admins Bane

Where do you think the average skill level in Guild Wars is right now?
Low to medium.

Do you think this is a good or bad thing for the game?
It's expected, f2p will draw in those want to play an online game but don't want to pay and don't have 3+ hours a day to play.

Why do you think it's at the level it's at?
Because it's free to play. There is no real level of commitment needed hence why there is considerable lack of decent PvE players.

How do you think you rate personally in relation to the average player?
I'm average.

How would you remedy the problem (if you think there is one)?
Gwen's Firestorm.

Have we begun to reach the upper level for the amount of skills the game is capable of working with?
No. New skills keeps the game fresh. New classes just need to be thought out better.

Are new professions too easy to play? To me playing one of the newer classes is more a challenge. I've tried playing Dervish and Paragon but just could never get into it like my good old necro and warrior.

My honest answers. Riverside geeks feel free to get out your dictionary/Thesaurus etc to rip it apart and start your 1000 word essay on why my opinion isn't valid.

I feel this was a blatant attack at my post.

Tiyuri · Jan 30, 2007, 04:11 AM // 04:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Str0b0

That sums it up very well I think. I'm not going to get involved with any debate about PvP since I don't do that anymore, but I don't think the new professions are too easy to play. they are simply new and as such you see people paying a lot of attention to them right now and coming up with spanking new builds that get picked up, tossed about, refined and then poof now you have this FotM that everyone has used and refined to the point of ridiculousness. That doesn't mean the profession as a whole is easy to play just that build.

Would you say then that the new professions are being aimed at PVE players? I see how a dervish could be more complicated to play than a warrior in PVE, but in PVP there's really only a few skill combinations worth using.

The problem with non grenth dervishes in pvp is that they hit so slowly and in big numbers they're very very easy to prot against. A dervish vs spirit bond for example has major trouble applying pressure. But in pve prot isn't much of a concern, and looking after yourself requires a little more focus than a warrior. Perhaps the niche for the new professions in PVP is too small?

tomcruisejr · Jan 30, 2007, 04:12 AM // 04:12

Define skill first and then let's talk coz i can call a group of searing flame elementalists that can use their build to beat almost all other players skilled too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tiyuri

Examples of these would be searing flames, sand storms, paragon party wide buffs, ritualist spirit spam, dervish. None of which take very much skill to play, but give mediocre teams some very dangerous fire power.

This is the problem. You don't want mediocre teams to beat you. And once they beat you with a build, you assume that they are unskilled (since they are unheard) and attack their build. Maybe you are getting old and rusty or naturally the rookies know how to play better than you?

Malice Black · Jan 30, 2007, 04:26 AM // 04:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by You just got tomahawked

I feel this was a blatant attack at my post.

Explain how. I don't read your posts and I haven't done so in a while. It hurts my eyes trying to read through the mass of words you call a paragraph.

My answers were my own they were not aimed at anyone. But if you feel they were then thats your business.

Str0b0 · Jan 30, 2007, 04:38 AM // 04:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tiyuri

Would you say then that the new professions are being aimed at PVE players? I see how a dervish could be more complicated to play than a warrior in PVE, but in PVP there's really only a few skill combinations worth using.

The problem with non grenth dervishes in pvp is that they hit so slowly and in big numbers they're very very easy to prot against. A dervish vs spirit bond for example has major trouble applying pressure. But in pve prot isn't much of a concern, and looking after yourself requires a little more focus than a warrior. Perhaps the niche for the new professions in PVP is too small?

I honestly hadn't thought about it that way but you do bring up a good point. I think they are aiming the Nightfall classes at PvE players. Factions though I think was more PvP-centric. Assassin for example almost screams PvP , to me anyway. Aside from a few notable gimmick builds they aren't really suited for PvE play. I'm not saying they can't be effective but generally speaking assassins apply hard damage in a short amount of time to a single target. That sounds like a very PvP like tactic. Target the most threatening member of a team and take it out. Ritualists, again not a very useful class in PvE. The spirits take awhile to set up and they don't move well. In PvP though, with smaller arena maps than the large PvE instances, the spirits and effects can be used to control the battlefield.

Guillaume De Sonoma · Jan 30, 2007, 05:13 AM // 05:13

This is probably the best thread I have read in a long time on guru, and I agree wholeheartedly with the origional post.

The problem, to me, is skills that are far overpowered like Avatar of Grenth and Searing Flames. But looking at the new classes since prophecies they are relatively easy to play/overpowered.

Ritualist and Paragon are impossibly easy to play. Dervishes are incredibly strong, much more than that of a warrior. Avatar of Grenth takes so much skill out of the game it makes me hurt. Assassins are the only skill requiring new class to be introduced since the start of the game, and their uses are rather limited in my opinion.

Redfeather1975 · Jan 30, 2007, 05:17 AM // 05:17

I started playing mid last year and my first character was a mesmer.
I stink very much.
Maybe I am influencing a lot of people to play stinky.

So if you see a bad mesmer.....it's me!
I thievery and divert my own spells. How's I do that?!

FoxBat · Jan 30, 2007, 05:34 AM // 05:34

I don't necessarily disagree with what you are saying, but the pending ATs which are supposed to make the ladder mean something, have alot of typically top guilds sitting on the sidelines moreso than the atrocious skill balance. The level of competition in HA is also low in part because so relatively few people are playing it now.